Bugle Calls

These are the positings from the old message board !!

Hawkeye

Bugle Calls

Post by Hawkeye »

With nothing better to do... I found this web page of military bugle calls. They are accurate, I'm sure, but not quite as we recall them (no background hissing, for instance. :-)

There are many more listed here than were played (while I was there, at least) at camp. Each one has a name, of course. "Fatigue" is aptly named for when it was heard.

Anyway, its a stroll down memory lane for each one.

-Mark



[url=http://www.fma-alumni.org/bugle_calls.html]Bugle Calls[/url]
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Ghandi

Tatto gets no respect...

Post by Ghandi »

Everyone probably remembers that Tattoo was the end of evening activity and time to return to the bunk...but who remembers what it sounded like? I just listened to it, and, after hearing it about 500 times over the course of 9 years...it didnt sound familiar at all...is that just my poor memory, or does anyone else feel that Tattoo is just not that noteworthy?



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Robert Benjamin

Re:Tatto gets no respect...

Post by Robert Benjamin »

Now that I hear it, I remember Tattoo. Do you remember the words to "the assembly"? There's a soldier in the grass. . .


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Re: Tattoo/Purim

Post by Uncle Moish »

Tattoo always meant to me "the beginning of the end".

For the past three plus months I felt that all the events at the UN [and other "institutions"] were mere posturing, a compromise, for better or worse would emanate, and no war would occur.

Now, however, this inveterate returned Peace Corps Volunteer believes hostilities will break out unless Saddaam goes into exile [and odds for this I'd stake at no better than one in four].

Miracles have, however, occurred before. Yet we are admonished not to rely on them.

Nevertheless, there MAY be some significance in the timing of this critical moment with our hearing tonight the Megillah of Esther, who, with Mordechai, was able to use the miiraculous [and "coincidental"] turn of events to save the people from destruction.

G-d willing, may this week, with tattoo sounding loud and clearly, pass quickly and with little "collateral damage", and bring peace to Iraqis who have suffered [silently] for several decades [and to Kurds have have had that experience for centuries]. I hope and pray that no Altonian [or any human being] will engage in conduct which lengthens and deepens the process [and/or discourage the Butcher of Baghdad from speedily going to the place where he rightfully belongs].

Uncle Markie



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War Talk (Re:Tattoo/Purim)

Post by DDD »

Is it OK if we talk about the imminent hostilities? If Gary -- or anyone -- wants us to 'take it offline' then I'm fine with that too.

I have felt for weeks & months that the invasion was inevitable. Saddam could leave at any time, but the likelihood of that has always seemed small. Even were he to leave (or leave the earth), in order to ensure regime change, the US would have to go in and, um, change the regime.

[On the lighter side, see: <A HREF="http://www.borowitzreport.com/archive_rpt.asp?rec=529" TARGET="_blank">http://www.borowitzreport.com/archive_r ... rec=529</A> "SADDAM: FOR $30 BILLION, I WILL ATTACK MYSELF" )

As a person who tries to think morally (read: liberal weenie), I am concerned about several things whenever war is threatened : when is it just & right to use force?; how much force is just & right to use?; and how much damage will be done in the pursuit of otherwise right & just war aims?

[For a source on approach- not that this or any other human organization has kept to these ideals - See: <A HREF="http://www.nccbuscc.org/sdwp/international/justwar.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.nccbuscc.org/sdwp/internatio ... war.htm</A> ]

I'm pro-US and I'm pro-Israel. I don't think Bush rules illegitmately (badly, but not illegitimately), and I don't think everything he does is wrong.

I don't think all wars are wrong. Still, I'm not sure this one is right.

What do others think?

DDD

PS: As I've said to Neil & Markie privately, I think the Kurds are likely screwed no matter what. ;-(



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Re: WarTalk(Re:Tattoo/Purim)

Post by KenWarshaw »

I think the big ethical discussion question is how many innocent (Iraqi, American, or otherwise) lives are worth sacrificing for the sake of THIS cause? Unfortunately, it is a question that cannot accurately be answered. But for me, I try to look at it from a mathematical perspective. Over the last twelve years (since the last Bush War) how many Iraqis have died at the hands of Saddam Hussein? And how many Iraqis live their lives in fear of their government on a daily basis? And how many more lives inside and outside of Iraq will be lost by inaction? And finally, will war stop the killing, and stop the fear, and stop the buildup of dangerous weapons? The answer is simple, and that is why I support a military operation to oust Saddam and his Republican Guard.

However, I also find it unblievable that our bumbling President (again, just my opinion, and Gary please feel free to halt the political talk if you deem it inappropriate) cannot convince a majority in the Security Council that this is a necessary action. Somehow, his lack of diplomacy and total absence of oratory eloquence has made US look silly...and that is staggering! Saddam Hussein is one of the world's most hated dictators, he has gassed thousands of his own people, he kills anyone who speaks or acts against him, he seeks to destroy Western Civilization, and yet somehow, in the eyes of the UN Security Council, the United States manages to look like the bad guy. This, along with President Carter's complete idiocy during the Iran hostage crisis, have to go down as two of the most mismanaged International affairs of the last hundred years.

So, you said it well Dave, President Bush doesn't lead illegitimately or illegally, just badly.

I hope that this is a quick conflict and that we do the proper thing by staying in Iraq as long as it takes to rebuild a true democracy that can stand on its own for a long, long time.

Thanks,
Ken



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Uncle Markie

Re: You're Both Right [sort of]

Post by Uncle Markie »

BUT First,

A happy Purim/St. Patrick Day's season. [The last time they coincided was during Gulf War I. What a "coincidence"!]

In my many discussions, the yardstick I've used between the sincere and insincere was whether the person provided straight forward answers to, basically, "yes" or "no" questions. David has never hesitated, nor played games, in this respect.

Ken pretty much has it right [in my "opinion"] but for one area and one omission. As to the latter, in addition to the "mathematical perspective" there is also the qualitative one. What kind of a society/world will it be if otherwise democratic and free societies must operate and express itself with fear and coercion playing significant roles?

This leads directly to the aspect of "error", the so-called inability to convince members of the Security Council that....[whatever[. There is a difference between convincing others that you are right and being able to convince them to acknowledge this when it is against their perceived interests. There is a certain member of the Council [which will remain nameless] so enmeshed with the Iraqi economy VIA THE CURRENT REGIME, that no amount of proof could be convincing enough for them to go public. Add to this the composition of its [and others'] populace, and you have a fear factor whereby logic, right, and wrong are no longer factors in the opinion being EXPRESSED.

However, where the Bush administration showed its abject neglect was in not substituting the following [objective] resolution:

"The Security Council hereby declares that Iraq has not complied with Resolution 1441."

There can be no rational justification [other than realpolitic] for any nation to have voted against this. It was a badly bungled, lost opportunity.

May this season of joy and gladness bring peace and safety to the citizens of all nations serving the cause of humanity and to the beleaguered of that region [and, should, after some 1000 years, there emerge a truely sovereign Kurdish entity, gom zeh l'tovah.]

Uncle Markie



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The Jerkin Josh

Re:WarTalk (Peace talk)

Post by The Jerkin Josh »

I would ask the following questions to anyone who is in favor of going to war and in the great Jewish tradition I will answer them as well.

Q. Why is the USA the biggest baddest dude on the block scared of Saddam and his patch of sand?

A. Paranoia, Israel is not scared of him and they are within range of his missiles.

Q. Wouldn?t it be better to have inspectors up his ass indefinitely than kill thousands of innocents and put our men in harms way?

A. DUH!

Q. Since when is anthrax a "weapon of mass destruction".

A. Since George Bush told us so.

Q. There is no question Saddam is a bad guy?but is he worse than the guys in N Korea, Saudi Arabia, Rwanda, Indonesia, all places where people are dying everyday at the hands of brutal regimes?

A. Yes because he is our "enemy"?at the moment, and they are our "friends"?for the time being.

Bush has not given one decent reason for going to war even as the reasons change daily. He has been unable to convince anyone else in the world community of the justness of his cause even with some serious American green on the table. (You would think 30 billion would be more than enough reasons to join up and kick a little KURD ass in the process)

The only reasons I can think of for going to war:

1. So Cheney and his Haliburton cronies, who have been planning this war for 30 years, can get their hands on more oil
2. To avenge Daddy
3. To bring the world closer to the apocalypse and the ensuing rapture; the "ultimate goal" of Christians everywhere.
4. To distract us from the fact that the "war on terror" can never be won, Osama bin Laden is still out there, and 200 plus years of our civil liberties are being eviscerated.

Comparisons to Hitler, are ludicrous. This guy?s world domination plan couldn?t make it past a few dunes in Kuwait.

So?.I say NO WAR.

The Jerkin One



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Uncle Markie

Re: JOSHIE BABY

Post by Uncle Markie »

There will be no war if Saddaam leaves.

Even if your "arguments" were not full of "holes", the only effect making them [and demonstrating "against war"] will have is to encourage Saddaam to remain.

So, if you want no war, even if there is but one chance out of four, discourage his remaining [or else make war that much more inevitable].

We all have choices. Sometimes they go against our grain [and our egos], but if our goals are sincere, we adjust the means accordingly.

Happy Purim
[and no Christian or any other bashing please!]



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Re:War Talk (Re:Tattoo/Purim)

Post by DDD »

To bring this back to Alton, it occured to me to ask -

During the latter stages of Vietnam (while I was in High School, my god that was a while ago ...) what was the feeling about that war at Camp? Were there many Altonians who served? Were there any strong pro- or anti-war sentiments expressed publically or semi-publically?

DDD


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Re:WarTalk(Peacetalk)

Post by KenWarshaw »

Josh,

In the great secular (agnostic, atheistic, whatever) tradition, I will answer your questions.

Q: Why is the USA the biggest, baddest dude on the block scared of Saddam and his patch of sand.

A: Saddam has shown in the past through his use of chemical weapons on his own people, and through an unwarrented invasion of Kuwait 12 years ago, that he has no regard for human life and no regard for International law. Simply put, he is an outlaw. In addition, he has shown continually that he seeks (or has) nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. He has also claimed that he will certainly use these weapons against neighboring countries (Israel, Kuwait, Iran) or he will sell them to terrorist groups like Al-Queda for use against OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS at home and abroad.

Q: Wouldn't it be better to have inspectors up his ass indefinitely than kill thousands of innocents and put our men in harm's way?

A: This is where you are missing a HUGE piece of this equation. Inspections only work if there is an underlying threat of force. There has to be a strong, legitimate "or else" clause. With the French promising to veto ANY resolution that threatens force, there is no motivation for Saddam to cooperate.

Q: Since when is Anthrax considered a "weapon of mass destruction?"

A: Since a mere two pounds of it can infect thousands if properly distributed. Also, we are talking about VX gas as well, along with nuclear weaponry.

Q: Is Saddam worse than guys in N. Korea, Saudi Arabia, Rwanda, Indonesia, all places where people are dying every day at the hands of brutal regimes?

A: Certainly we cannot address ALL of these situations at once. And my personal opinion is that we should have taken care of the N. Korea situation first (a much more precarious situation). However, we have been living in false paradise that crumbled on September 11, and only since then have we begun to realize the ramifications of our inaction. We will get to those other situations in good time...at least I hope we do.

Whether or not the Bush/Chaney administration has alterior motives is really not a question...they do. But this particular situation is one in which the end justifies the means. There is a very clear "bottom line" here. Saddam is a murderer who has laughed in the face of 17 different UN Resolutions over the last 12 years. He only grows more dangerous (to our national security and our allies' national security) by the day. And now, once again he has absolutely no reason to cooperate with UN inspectors. Military conflict is the ONLY way he can be stopped.

Thanks,
Ken



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Kappy

Re:JOSHIE BABY

Post by Kappy »

Thank you Uncle Markie for discouraging bashing of other religions. I would like to address Josh's comment that comparing Saddam to Hitler is ridiculous. He stated that Saddam had no chance of fulfilling his plans. In 1933-34 Mussolini described Hitler as a mad little clown not capable of leading a country. Hitler's fellow countrymen granted him the chancellorship because they felt his incompetence would allow them to use him as a puppet. From what I have seen, Saddam and the early Hitler share a great deal in common.

Kappy


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Re:JOSHIE BABY

Post by DDD »

Historical comparisons are difficult, but they can be useful if not overpushed.

I think Saddam's trajectory more closely approaches Stalin's than A.H.'s, except the end will be different.

There was much talk of avoiding 'appeasement' in DC lately. In Munich 1938, the locus classicus of Appeasement, H. was allowed to retain the parts of Czecho. that he had invaded. So, the most relevant comparision in the present context would be to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, which he was not allowed to keep.

The US and the allies were conflicted about Iraq in 1991, thus Saddam and his regime survived. The administrations in the US and UK now are not conflicted. He's toast.

Going back to the original point - the Hitler-in-the-30's comparison has to do with 'containment'. Could Saddam have been contained? Well, some regimes can be contained, others not. Containment worked on the USSR, sort of; it works on Cuba. Containment is a long, frustrating strategy. War is quick.

I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions.

DDD

DDD


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The Jerkin Josh

Re:WarTalk(Peacetalk)

Post by The Jerkin Josh »

I submit that you are "missing a HUGE piece of this equation." Ever since the Gulf War there has been a "No Fly Zone" in both Southern and Northern Iraq, controlled by the US, which has been bombing anything that moves for the last 10 years. Saddam can't even set foot in half his territory, so he is surely aware of the force that would come to bear if he made any hostile moves.

France and other advocates for a peaceful solution were forced to play their cards for one reason only, the "man on a mission" brinkmanship of the President.

How many UN resolutions is Israel currently in violation of?

In response to another post,
I don't believe I was bashing any religions...just stating their beliefs as I perceive them.....Isn't this what this whole war is about anyway?

The Jerkin One



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Iraq (and Roll)

Post by Uncle Neil »

Josh,

I have read your last two postings with great interest. I must disagree with some of your points.

1) The no-fly zones and sanctions did nothing to contain Saddam's treatment of his own people (look at the SI article on what happened to athletes who did not win at the Olympics...and you thought pressure from Bunk I was brutal!). It did, I submit, give the Kurds protection, but did not stop Sadaam's support of international terrorism and the sanctions only made Sadaam's thugs richer as the common Iraqis suffered.

2) When the UN passed a resolution equating Zionism and racism, they lost their credibility. It was not the Israelis who gassed the (Muslim) Kurds in Iraq or the Iranian (Muslims) in the 80's. UN resolutions are often slanted and biased.

3) France...give me a break...THEY are the ones sucking up to Sadaam for oil, the US, Britain and Spain are the ones who are taking the risk of losing the oil by going to war. Had Bush wanted oil, he too could have thrown morality out the window and sucked up.

War is never something any rational person wants to see. But sometimes it is the lesser of two evils. Yes, Bush's skill as a diplomat has not been overly impressive, but when you look at how the people of Iraq have suffered and do not obscure it by bringing in other world problems, we are doing the right thing...regardless of what the motivation is or is not...

Sorry you came here to ethical discussion instead of services????



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